One Southern Baptist pastor from Mississippi stated, "I am not too pleased with our alcohol position, not because I am a champion for serving beer at Wednesday night dinner, but rather because of the convoluted way we reach this much-beloved stance. Our position on alcohol is one of recent historic origin, not scriptural."
And consider this quote from historian Mark Noll, "Some evangelicals have made opinion on liquor more important for fellowship & cooperation... than attitudes toward the person of Christ or the nature of salvation."
So, let me ask you, "Is a beer just a beer?"
Beer is an alcoholic beverage. Jesus' first recorded miracle was provisioning an alcoholic beverage. If people have an issue with alcoholic beverages, then they are either going to have to have some issues with what Jesus did or they are going to have to compromise and have inconsistent reasoning for believing that somehow beer is wrong versus believing what they believe in the rest of the Gospel.
ReplyDeleteThe debate shouldn't be able the chemical makeup of a liquid.
The debate should be about man's sensing of things in this world that alter man's perception of or ability to discover and discern truth. Alcoholic drinks and all those substances we learned about in D.A.R.E. are known to do this. But so does chocolate, caffeine, sporting events, beautiful women, and french fries from McDonald's.
There's no telling how far we've fallen from the paradise of Eden. Even the very air that we breath today may very well be altering our perception of reality.
But the question shouldn't just be about beer.
What are we going to allow our eyes, ears, mouths, hands, and mind to absorb? How are we going to allow it to affect our understanding of the environment we are in?
Why are we concerned about lame beers (that's all that's available in the south) when we go on living the rest of our daily lives ingesting garbage that can be more harmful.
The church, it appears to me, has always been about labeling, categorizing, dividing, and filtering of things. The church likes to call what is wrong and what is right. They like to separate groups of people. Just look at the person you go to church with (hint: they'll look like you).
And yet the church has some of the biggest problems. The church likes to talk about marriage rights and homosexuality when the church has the highest divorce rates in the world. How can a lost person not see the hypocrisy in some of these things that churches are trying to declare?
Nonetheless, there's a reason why there are thousands of different denominations in the world. Churches get hung up on one or two issues and decide to divide their church from another.
And even if this issue of beer went away, the South Baptist Convention and other church organisations would pick something else to legislate and rule on.
We can talk about beer today. We'll end up talking about another worldly thing tomorrow.
Of course, there is a common one that is closer than a brother that we could talk about.
Eric: Thanks for keeping this topic in such reasonable, & in my opinion, proper perspective. And, boy do I love french fries from McDonalds!!!
ReplyDeleteI think one of the great challenges of "church" people is that we are all sinful, proud, & ever-recovering legalists (although some love legalism & have no desire to recover). In essence, we are prone to forget the gospel & would rather major on issues that separate rather than center on the cross. We use words such as "those sinners." Doesn't that sound like Jesus' parable of the Pharisee & tax collector!?
Why? Well, I think it comes down to sin. But, also the proud desire to have control & believe oneself to be superior to others. Wasn't it C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity who said, "Whenever we find that our religious life is making us feel that we are good-- above all, that we are better than someone else-- I think we may be sure that we are being acted on, not by God, but by the devil."
I find it appropriate to repent of such sin.
I believe we would find such pleasure if our discussions were not about prohibition of "this & that" but rather on how we might love & desire Jesus more... & lead our spouses & children in godliness & spur one another along in faith. When we address behavior, we must start with desire. And it is only when I desire Jesus that my love for "things" is in proper perspective.
... feel free to continue the discussion & we invite further insight!
Great position fellas. While we are at it, let's also make excuses and be apathetic about porn. I mean, if I'm generally focused on the cross, a little jacking off won't hurt anybody. How judgemental are other Christians for telling me that I should not enjoy looking at women as objects? We are too worried about little things, like sin. The church is so judgemental for calling sin what it is. Bunch of nay-sayin' hypocrites.
ReplyDeleteOK, enough sarcasm. Lovingly, I tell you guys the following story: Several months ago, I began to rationalize the use of alcohol, just as you guys have above. It started with two beers over 18 holes of golf. I wasn't intoxicated. I began to tell myself what you guys say, "This isn't sin," "Eating a big greasy hamburger is worse than drinking a beer slowly," "At least I'm not one of those 'judgemental' Christians."
Then the next weekend, I did the same. Then it became several beers, all the while noticing the pattern and rationalizing what I was doing by reminding myself that there is no hierarchy to sin. Sin is my nature. There's not one sin worse than another, and Jesus Christ acknowledged that I will never be "better than other people" when He gave His life on the cross of Calvary. Therefore, consuming alcohol is not that bad.
Then I was drinking more frequently... Then I purchased a fifth of whiskey... THEN A LOVING BROTHER APPROACHED ME AND CALLED ME OUT AND PRAYED WITH ME THAT THE SPIRIT WOULD BRING CONVICTION ON MY HEART AND INTO MY LIFE because I was knowingly embracing habitual sin.
Maybe no one has the tendencies that I have shared here. My place is not to condemn your actions or opinions. My place is to share with you that my heart has never been so broken as when I realized that in the midst of apathy toward alcohol consumption, God saw me as righteous through the death and resurrection of His Son, My Savior! How could I knowingly and intentionally "nail Him to that cross" with such ease?
I do not promote prohibition. I agree with Paul when He says in Colossians, "...why...do you submit to regulations - 'Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch' - according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh."
But I also must ask: How does having a beer bring glory to my Savior? How does that action promote the gospel?
(Romans 6:1-4) "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
Eating is a necessity. Consuming alcoholic drinks is not. Like all other temporal pleasure, the satisfaction of drinking a beer is momentary. Alcohol CAN obstruct our pursuit of our Savior.
I have been trying to think of what I may add to this conversation, and really I don't know where to begin.
ReplyDeleteI am a sinner saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, who apart from his seeking me in the midst of my utter sinfulness, I would not have sought him. We are told by the Apostle Paul, that we have liberty's, but we must be aware how our practicing our liberties may affect our brothers around us.
I believe that I have the liberty as a Christian to have a beer. I also have the responsibility when partaking in that liberty to make sure I am not in sin. How could I be in sin?
First, if I drink to the point to where it alters my ability to function, the Bible calls this drunkenness, and it is a sin to be drunk.
Second, if I know that I do not have self-control, when it comes to alcohol (and other liberty's) then I should not partake of them. If I choose to try and rationalize that fact, then I will probably be in sin from lack of self-control.
Third, if I know that I can have one beer, and be self-controlled (moderate) in my drinking of it, but know that I am in a community that does not see it as acceptable, then if I consume that beer in that community, I jeopardize the reputation of the gospel. I practice my liberty at the risk of altering the power of the gospel.
Finally, if I know that I can drink moderately and responsibility, with self-control, and the community I live in is not against the drinking of alcohol, but am in the presence of a fellow brother who has a history of alcohol abuse, if I choose to drink that beer in his presence my brother, then I am in sin.
All of this said, alcoholism is a real problem. If you don't believe me, talk to a family that has been affected by such sin. I can totally understand why those from this background would be against alcohol use, and we as Christ-followers need not dispute their experience, but also, we should never use language that states that is unbiblical to drink alcohol. There is responsibility on our end when it comes to this liberty, and we must adhere to our biblical responsibilities.
Just my two cents.
Brothers,
ReplyDeleteFor me it is a question of idolatry. As I examine my life, there are things that compete for my heart...alcohol is one of many. I am an incredible escape artist, and alcohol is a means of escape for me. I do not apologize for being a pleasure seeker, but I must constantly repent of being satisfied with lesser pleasures. To find ultimate satisfaction in anything other than the pleasures of God, namely Himself, is sin. If I could have a drink and not see it as a means of escape and inordinate pleasure, I could have it and not sin. But God's Word instructs me to be fully convinced in my own mind...I am not convinced.(Romans 14:5) Although this issue is important and each must personally be convinced, may we hunger and THIRST for the One who confessed His thirst on the cross so we would never thirst again.
Remaining desperate...
Brothers:
ReplyDeleteFirst, Daddy of 3, please know that I consider this a non-issue with you. Maybe I should have been more careful in what I said; if so, I apologize. I am very sympathetic towards your story & I believe you know my affection towards you. I do not take lightly alcohol & have seen it abused by many. And, I presume we have all have suffered loss due to it being abused. I appreciate your sharing your story.
I admit I cannot personally relate fully. Each of us have different perspectives on this & I am thankful to have only consumed alcohol on a few occasions & have never been drunk. I took an oath to abstain from alcohol (& other things) when I was 12 & did not break that until I was 27 when I had some wine. I want to honor God in everything I do. Yet, I have been under the influence of many other things: lust, sensuality, pride, anger, deception, etc. And, the battle daily rages against indwelling sin. There are some things that I cannot go near due to the temptation it would bring. In essence, I must build a wall around them so that I do not "go there." Why should we wait until we are in the situation before planning an escape? May we guard ourselves.
I am also thankful for Scott & Mike's comments to the discussion. I agree that the question must always be, "does this honor Christ & does it make the gospel look good?" And, may we find our pleasure in Christ.
For some, there is no way to drink a beer & honor God, especially given the community & region many of us live. Yet, I am not convinced that of everyone, everywhere. I have been to other countries where people do not predominately abuse alcohol. In the US, it is ever-abused. But, it doesn't seem to always be this way everywhere.
The point I am trying to make is that we have made the prohibition of alcohol in churches such a huge issue that it has taken the focus off of the centrality of Christ & the cross. I imagine that our emphasis against alcohol has produced a mysterious appeal to many as they desire to pursue a lesser pleasure. It needs to be responsibly taught. They are not being taught in most churches that the greatest pleasure is knowing & enjoying Christ. Many of the people I saw abusing alcohol in high school/college were the ones that grew up in Christian churches. Not to mention, many were sleeping with their girlfriends & enjoying porn. They/we need the gospel applied to their/our lives.
The point is not to give glory to alcohol, porn, sex, whatever. The point is that when you are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, the lesser pleasures aren't as big of a deal because you are being led by the Spirit.
There is much more to say & I am enjoying the discussion, wisdom, insight, & testimonies. Please feel free to continue... but for now, lets all go share a big, tall, cold glass of water!